in Quarry Ridge (Moderator: Schrader)

Honestly I think part of the problem (I could be wrong) but I think xc riders are under-represented in the contributions to the trail maintenance and work out there.  The downhill/FR guys show up and do a ton of work - Brendan and co do work on the main trail for everybody too but it's not their main type of riding.  (Although I note interestingly some DJ guys like Tim are even enjoying the challenge of the xc riding and climbing) Almost all the progressive work out there in the last couple of years has been on downhill work.  Yet as I said there is a very high population of xc riders out there.  Maybe if we are more visible by working together on trail work and maintenance and agree on a group of people to watch after that climb, we can agree to leave it for the majority of riders who want it there, and this discussion goes away.

I absolutely don't think it should become a downhill line though.

All of our stalwarts are really good about accommodating a lot of riders but it can be like politics where you can't deny the influence of those who show up and write checks. It also happens where a lot of the ad hoc sessions are serving specific interests if not there to fix specific problems.

At times handing out the CORP business cards and encouraging people to join in to work at what they want or be heard over what they want has helped. Maybe a shout out to Chain Smokers, Mad FORCs, and UW teams for some XC help.

I do remember handing CORP cards to two you've mentioned!

Please don't get rid of the sandy climb.  I believe we had this same discussion a few years ago, and I don't believe the trail has eroded significantly since then (aside from the lower, pre-sandy part).  As I recall, someone suggested that if occasionally walking one's bike ruined one's whole ride, then perhaps one should stick to the pavement.  Upgrading the ambulance trail to something more interesting sounds like a great idea, but the sandy climb is, as many have said, a highlight of the trail.

This.  I like the sandy climb -- it's my favorite part of the whole loop.  I get better and better at it each time I ride there.

I met interviewed a DNR lake management coordinator for a story a few weeks ago about nutriend loading into lakes, which is run off.  Since she has a masters and 22 years exp. in this I picked her brain a little on theory of sustainable trail builbind and maintanance.  She said something interesting.  She said that a lot of times soil can get washed down and that's ok as long as you keep it on site and every so often you bring it back to where it came from.  She said the best way to capture dirt is with a retention pond.  Which qp has.  She said that every two years or so to bring the dirt back up to where it started.  Found her opinion interesting and applicable. 

I love every kind of biking!  I just like the going really fast then flying through the air kind the most..

Actually even more simply we could maybe make a few steps (if you will) going up out of partially barried logs that would keep stuff from washing down entirely, and put some logs on the side as to kind of box it in.

So far the postings are all pleading to keep the sandy climb. Everyone seems to agree that not much maintenance need be done.  And clearly people care enough about it to rally some extra effort for what maintenance would be needed.  I also think everyone supports a snaking reroute of the ambulance climb.  So let's keep both.

I know with Brendan's schedule he isn't getting on line much - but I'd ask that he review the comments and we discuss this further.   Perhaps he could use an assistant trail steward to watch after the xc work - just a suggestion. 

It's a no brainer in my opinion to keep it open, we haven't done anything with it and it's still completely rideable.  I don't have a comment on switchbacking the ambulance climb, I think the xc work needed right now are all the berms in all areas of the trail - that should be done before anything else xc related in my opinion.  They are worn down and getting to the point of having to brake into them. 

haha I think it's funny how people think we never ride xc. Yesterday I went and burned 3 laps on my fuel ex. I'm not blind to xc trail improvement and expansion, but it's definitely not my area of expertise.

It's true that if XC riders need more of a presence in helping at quarry ridge. The place is deteriorating in many places and it's sad because yesterday there were at least 10 cars in the parking lot and I know they weren't seeing our best work out there.

Alex Applegate volunteered to be assistant trail steward when we were riding yesterday saying he'd like to see the trail expanded to a good 3 mile loop.

haha I think it's funny how people think we never ride xc. Yesterday I went and burned 3 laps on my fuel ex. I'm not blind to xc trail improvement and expansion, but it's definitely not my area of expertise.

True, this has probably been written in a melodramatic black and white sort of way, but just more to illustrate the preferences and tastes than to paint people into a particular box.  To demonstrate my point - you would much rather bomb down the rocky bowl but you've tried to ride up it - I sometimes ride down it but really like and prefer riding up it (I'm a sick bastard for that I know).  And to that point - people with freeride and downhill preferences would put more energy into that kind of trail out there if they were forced to make a choice, and vice versa.  And thus, if DH/FR guys are the ones showing up to do most of the work, I think that's the direction in which the decisions will sway.  No judgement in that, just fact. 

Bottom line, the opinions have been heard.  I don't want to lose the main point here.  Whatever it takes to convince the steward do leave the sandy climb along (I'm sure Brendan isn't going to be a ruthless dictator here  ) then can we make it official, and give him whatever extra helps he'd like to see.

I will pretty much echo everyone else. The climb is a fun challenge, please keep it. Yes it can be tough as a beginner, but nobody should be embarrassed or ashamed to walk it. Keep trying and when you finally clean that sucker it is a great feeling. I'm no trail builder, but I also agree that I cannot see the rocky section needing much maintenance. If there are issues with the first short steep section at the bottom, is there not a way to reroute that and still keep that main part of the climb? I’m usually looking at the trail so I don’t know if that is even an option.

I will pretty much echo everyone else. The climb is a fun challenge, please keep it. Yes it can be tough as a beginner, but nobody should be embarrassed or ashamed to walk it. Keep trying and when you finally clean that sucker it is a great feeling. I'm no trail builder, but I also agree that I cannot see the rocky section needing much maintenance. If there are issues with the first short steep section at the bottom, is there not a way to reroute that and still keep that main part of the climb? I’m usually looking at the trail so I don’t know if that is even an option.

+1

This is the most challenging XC climb in Madison. Take it out and QR loses most of its appeal to me (figuring drive time and riding mileage).

Just to reiterate what Tom said - there has been no decision to close the sandy climb. After the pushback we got last year on the topic, I stated that I was going to hold off. This is a long post but hopefully it will help get everyone on the same page and allow us move forward with a resolution:

This discussion started because the shorter climb before the sandy climb has eroded significantly in recent years. Riders started complaining last year about how it was becoming unrideable. The sandy climb itself is not much of a problem from my perspective as it hasn't changed significantly over the past several years.

I worked with the IMBA trail care crew to perform an assessment of the climbs in question several years ago. IMBA's immediate recommendation was to reroute/eliminate  the small climb in between the 2 existing climbs, which we've already done. They said that the sandy climb is sustainable as long as we were fine with a few inches of sand covering the trail surface (just as others have stated here). However, IMBA's assessment was that the initial climb is on a grade that is 5%-10% steeper than the trail surface can sustain. The IMBA crew predicted that within 5 years we would experience significant erosion problems (this started last year) and would need to choose one of the following:

• Rebuild the climb from scratch and change the trail surface. This will involve using logs/rocks as the trail surface for the duration of the climb and means more initial effort along with more yearly maintenance that will take away from other efforts to maintain and improve the XC loop
• Find a different place to climb the hill (hence my suggestion for using ambulance trail)

Given the feedback on this idea over the past 6 months, I think it's safe to say that most active club members who ride there would like to keep the trail open. I'm glad that so many folks are passionate about the XC loop and I hope that you are all just as motivated to help out with the build and maintenance that will be required to keep this climb open. Moving forward, I'm thinking there are two ways we can approach this:

• Focus on rebuilding the shorter climb as I described above. This means the only way up the hill will be the rebuilt shorter climb and the subsequent sandy climb, and more time will need to be spent each year keeping the shorter/steeper climb rideable.
• Keep the existing climbs open "as is", and work on building a sustainable switchback route up the ambulance trail. This would allow us to classify the ambulance trail as the "main route" up the hill, reducing riders pressure on the existing climbs and allowing us to keep them open as a more challenging alternative to the ambulance trail.
  

Post up here with your preference. Depending on the responses I get on this topic, we'll be moving forward with either #1 or #2 on the 4/7 trail day. Over the next couple weeks I'll be posting up here for a some ad hoc sessions to prep for the official workday on 4/7 if you'd like to help out and/or provide input in advance (yes, I'm actually in town now).

I updated the meeting minutes to more accurately reflect the current state of affairs.

I'd also like to clarify that the idea of closing the sandy climb was not driven by the desire to turn it into a downhill trail. The reason for this proposal is to make the trail more rideable for all types of users and more sustainable (i.e. less yearly maintenance). The idea of making it a DH was just one other "pro" that I identified when looking at all the pros/cons.

My apologies if I misunderstood what was said at the meeting, but I was under the impression (based on the way it was presented) that the issue had already been decided.   

If it is still open for discussion, then I will add my voice to the chorus asking that the climb not be removed.  There is only one section that is really bad....is there no way to reroute around just that part?   The ambulance trail is fun to ride up, but it is more an exercise in endurance than bike handelling.  The sandy climb to me is the best/hardest part of QR (although I am admittedly not a DH guy).  I also second the comments about potential trail damage if it is turned into a downhill run and do not understand why it is too eroded to climb, but ok to ride down.  (Then again, I am no expert in trail design, so maybe there is an explanation)

Edit:  Sorry Brendan....didn't see your post before I posted the above. 

Brendan
Thanks MUCH for your review, clarification and thoughtful response.
I vote enthusiastically for option 2 - leave the sandy climb purely as is, and make a nice trail up in place of the ambulance climb.  I'll let others vote but I'm guessing you'll get wholehearted agreement.

We may have had some misunderstanding on the certainty of the plans due to the meeting notes but the good outcome is that we have a good survey of preferences here by the riders - and also I think visibility to possibly the need for more participation on the trail work.  I know I personally regular do bits of maintenance out there while riding, but have not been able to sync up with a QR trail workday.  I think I'm on my way to Europe at the trail day but if I'm not I'm going to try to make it.

Option 2 for me. Sorry for any confusion I caused at the meeting. As you said Tim, approval of minutes before posting would be a good solution for next time.