in CamRock (Moderator: TheMayor1)

I thought I would start a new thread so I am not hijacking my own I would love some input on the new beginner downhill. There have been a couple of comments that have left me scratching my head, and I would like to get some feedback if possible:

The new "easy" downhill isn't all that easy, actually, but is switchback fun, for sure.

and

Honestly today the new beginner trail was harder to ride than the new expert one.

And then my own:
"OK. Trying to understand the comments on the new trails.
Expert downhill: rock section, off-camber roller, jump with no bail out, a few more high speed jumps and roots on the way down. All high speed and no real option to bail out at any point.
Beginner: a couple of lines on corners that keep your attention, but no real consequences if you fail anywhere on the trial. Sunday I took my 6 and 9 year old boys, and two 10 year old nephews down it twice with no problems. They loved it.
I would not even think of taking them down the Expert Trail.
What am I missing??"

So I don't know if I am taking these quotes differently than intended. But I would really like to know: I assume you were not taking the trail at beginner speed? And analyzing the trail at a slower speed like beginners will be riding, does anyone think there is an issue with the new beginner downhill?

If the reality is that it will be an easy trail at beginner speed and minimal consequences if there is a failure, but that at higher speeds then it can still be a fun challenge for more advanced riders, then I will declare it a resounding success. But if there are issues for the true less experienced riders I want to know about it so that I can start taking the appropriate steps. Looking forward to the input. Thanks.

Admittedly, I was probably going faster than a beginner would...but who knows? The things I found a bit tricky were the tight corners with trees in them. They seem to be of a radius that is a little tight for the slope.

But what I say doesn't mean much at this point,  knowing that the trail isn't finished...it needs benching, berms, polishing, etc. And I know that stuff will make it better/easier/safer for beginners. I do think it's easier than the original decent from the parking lot, for whatever that's worth!  8)

Same, too fast for the small corners, if you bermed that whole trail I would consider it expert dh flow course.  I like it a lot and am stoked to jam on it when it's done!  That should tell you it's prob not beginner.  It reminds me of other dh flow courses I ride, but, it's actually narrower and the corners are tighter!  I personally think it's more dangerous than the expert one cause it's decieving.  It looks easy, til you hit a 90 degree plus corner at speed, or a downhill switchback.

Same, too fast for the small corners, if you bermed that whole trail I would consider it expert dh flow course.  I like it a lot and am stoked to jam on it when it's done!  That should tell you it's prob not beginner.  It reminds me of other dh flow courses I ride, but, it's actually narrower and the corners are tighter!  I personally think it's more dangerous than the expert one cause it's decieving.  It looks easy, til you hit a 90 degree plus corner at speed, or a downhill switchback.

I am glad you think it flows like a downhill flow trail. My son and I (Emory helped me lay this trail out) will take that as a compliment. The plan was to make the trail still rideable by beginners and yet fun for more advanced riders as well. Berming this trail is a definite possibility Tim, which would make it more fun for advanced riders.

I am still not convinced that the perception of the trail difficulty is not more a function of speed than design. A well built and designed trail can be a both rideable for a beginner and a ton of fun for the advanced riders. The Connector is a good example. That trail varies from beginner to intermediate in design, including Rip N' Ride. There is nothing expert about it. But at speed it can be a trail that has you on edge and smiling from ear to ear.

When Emory and I laid it out we were following the IMBA Guidelines for a beginner trail:

5% or less average trail grade (it averages 4%), maximum of 15% (corners) - check
36" or wider corridor - check
Tread surface Firm and Stable - check
Natural Obstacles and Technical Terrain Features:
                 Unavoidable obstacles 2" or less - None present.
                 Unavoidable bridges 36" or wider - none present
                 Avoidable obstacles may be present - Current or future berms fit under here. beginners will typically  ride berms at slower speeds on the inside of the turn, not on the berm.

That is awesome that your son helped!  Please take that as a compliment cause it's a sweet trail and tell him I said thanks as well!

Yeah, I was straight booking.  That line has great potential to be a sick fast dh better than rip n ride.  Rip n ride a beginner will be on the brakes and an expert will be not braking.  The new one required much braking.  I have a hard time thinking in terms of a beginner xc trail.  I only see the fast possibility, sorry.  My thought was that the expert one, any beginner will immediately know, I'm in over my head and stop and walk down or go around (avoiding injury).  On the new one a very beginner prob won't be going fast enough to have much of a prob.  However every experienced rider such as myself and Q, and any gutsy beginner, will be going too fast for that trail how it is and that is why I say it's more dangerous I guess.  What I said is from my point of view.  The beginner trail is more dangerous than the expert one for experts.  Really, I shouldn't be crashing on a beginner dh flow course.  I'm a little embarrased to share that cause nobody saw it and now everyone knows that I wrecked but thats ok.  I think it just needs big berms and to be contoured a little to accomodate the speed anyone but beginners will have down it.

I will gladly help that trail ride well from a fast dh standpoint however I can.

It felt bad to me cause most dh I'm used to is made for and doesn't flow right and may even hurt bad if your not pinned.  I'm backwards though, at camrock I climb in the granny gear and rest while climbing them bomb everything that isn't uphill

That is awesome that your son helped!  Please take that as a compliment cause it's a sweet trail and tell him I said thanks as well!
I will gladly help that trail ride well from a fast dh standpoint however I can.
It felt bad to me cause most dh I'm used to is made for and doesn't flow right and may even hurt bad if your not pinned. 

I will let Emory know of the Thanks. That will pretty well stoke a 9 year old!
I think making that a fun downhill with the addition of berms will be sweet. As always, the offer of help will be gladly accepted. More hands will make it happen sooner than later.

I'm backwards though, at camrock I climb in the granny gear and rest while climbing them bomb everything that isn't uphill

Love this quote. You and me both Tim! We definitely need to get out and ride. I always say the only excuse for to putting up with the uphill sections is for the payoff in the downhills :D When the trail turns downhill, get the heck out of my way!

That's awesome!  We need to ride asap for sure, I actually don't think you and I have ever really ridden together!  That's funny.  We did for a brief moment in the race and when we both bailed early from the farm group ride!  But no real riding.  I think I made a few xc guys mad on that ride cause I stopped at the top of the dh sections and waited for people to get out the way so I could bomb them lol. 

I say I like skiing more than biking but it's only cause of the lifts!

I'm free every sunday all day til 5 for an obligation at 6 downtown.  M W F Sat I'm awake and free from about 11 - 1.  Thursday from 11 - 1 and again from 3 - 5.  I keep busy that's why it's tough to get out and ride xc when the freeride places are minutes away.  Sunday is the best day for me cause I have all day.