in Quarry Ridge (Moderator: Schrader)

Regarding QR uphill reroute - we had talked about ensuring we have an option for a technical climb.  The ambulance climb is a good long climb but about 1/10 as cool to go up for xc riders as the original sandy climb.  I feel it's important that we retain the appeal to xc riders as well as downhillers - to be honest with you there are a lot more xc riders that go to QR than any other type of rider.  We had some discussion about looking at options around the rocky bowl - that should be on the table.  I can ride up the rocky bowl area, but it is hard and I think it's a more than what most people will want.  We will need a route developed if we don't let people ride up the old climb.

Brendan knows taking this climb away is a big concern of mine and he is the trail steward so it's his call, he puts in the hours and knows the land - but as one of the most frequent riders of QR I would be very disappointed if we take this away, if we can't replace the experience, and I really question if there's a real problem.  The cynical part of me thinks people just want to be able to ride down it (I'm sure I'll take a beating for that comment - but why is the erosion not a problem for riding down it).  I rode out there yesterday, there's a little new erosion from over the winter compared to last year.  Things shift and move, but bottom line is it's a bunch of sand with a bunch of rock over it.  It cannot be maintained but I argue after MANY MANY MANY hours on that trail system, it doesn't NEED a lot of maintenance.  The bottom part is as rideable as ever right now.  It's not going anywhere, things just shift around.  It probably doesn't technically meet any sustainable trail definition but as I said, it's sitting on rock and it's not going anywhere.

I think that trail damage may actually increase if it is ridden in the downhill direction.

Inexperienced bikers using a heavy hand on the brakes will be more destructive than a poor climber getting off and walking.

Just my thought.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that the ambulance trail is actually a much worse case study in erosion and unsustainable trail than the  sandy climb.  It is washed out and gets worse with every big rain.  To ride up (and I do, I use every bit of trail out there except the jumps) it, one has to get up on the side of of the washed out sections, which widens and shifts it.  Water runs straight down it and it is carving itself into a little canyon, more or less all the way down.   It's not rock, so it just gets deeper and deeper.

I would agree that replacing the sandy climb with the ambulance trail would be taking a lot of the fun out of QR at least for me.  I ride single speed and I look forward to trying to make the whole sandy climb.  It's a challenge in picking lines and keeping momentum.  The ambulance trail is also very challenging for me single speed but only in that it is one long straight climb with no chance of catching my breath in the middle.

I didn't know there were plans to re-route the sandy climb bit.  That's easily my favorite part of the course.  I'm pretty much only an XC rider, so climbs are much more appealing to me than jumps or downhills (although the rocky bowl is great fun too). 

I was out at QR on Wednesday evening.  The sandy climb seemed to be almost exactly as it was last fall, and I didn't notice it change much over the course of last summer either.  Where (specifically) is the erosion the biggest problem?

The decision to close it is in the meeting minutes from last night.

The biggest issue was at the first part of climbing, before you actually get up into the sandy climb.  It was all rerouted  a year or two ago (memory failing on the exact timing).  Then with some big rains, what they re-routed got washed out a bit and became technically more difficult for a while.  It has more or less healed itself to being more rideable again.

I'm glad some of the xc riders are speaking up to give their opinions here.  I told Brendan last year when this was first discussed that the sandy climb was many xc riders favorite part of the loop.   

As I said, my main points:

• I don't think there's as much of a problem as has been suggested
  If erosion is too much of a problem to go uphill then we shouldn't ride down it either (like that's gonna be enforceable)
  If we really must get rid of it let's have xc people get out and lend Brendan a big hand to find a new great route up and build it

Keep the opinions coming!

I apologise if i wasnt clear at the meeting. This reroute is the idea I've been told but nothing is definite and you'd have to ask brendan for specifics

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk

I wasn't at the meeting, I read what was in the meeting notes.  Perhaps the meeting notes made it sound a little more set in stone than was actually discussed.

Borrow one of our clinometers or buy a phone app.

Know the slope you're working with (existing trail, potential trail).

Flag ways/routes that fall into the general rules for slope and climbing 1/2 of it. If that or routes don't work you flag to places where you can make turns.

Use a radius greater than 6' before you plan turns and/or think of where a turning platform might be because there's a tendency for them to get smaller when they get built.

When you make your turns be aware of the slope you're climbing in the big picture (your point a to b climb) and any inslope or outslope to address water.

Editor's note: Make radius larger than you think for type of turns that produce what's known as sh_t eating grin.

If you need to make turning platforms (aka climbing turns) and/or crib walls don't start the project until you have the labor and materials lined up.

This formula generally solves all sorts of problems such as happy riders, minimum maintenance.

IMBA no longer has as much stuff on their www site in order to sell their books but the federal govt and American Trails still have a lot of public info. I will let people look at my books but no longer lend them. I'm at $120 spent on copies of one that never seems to get returned.

http://www.imba.com/catalog/book-trail-solutions

That hill climb is one of my fav's!  Especially that sandy rocky part.  I would be sad if it goes away.  I love to dh but would rather ride up that one.  I generally ride up it a few times when there then walk the ambulance trail when I get tired.

Also to clarify, the new route up the ambulence corridor would be to make it into switchbacks.

I agree I like the sandy climb, but in either case we need an easier way up to make the trail rideable by beginners, which it currently isn't.

Maybe we could section the sandy climb into 2 sides, 1 for up and 1 for down?

As far as the climb accomodating beginners it was always my belief that once you committed to climbing to the top the beginner aspect of QR was done and you entering intermediate/advanced terrain. 

On opening day (the very first ever) at QR a few years back I rode a handful of laps and saw a gentleman struggling with the sandy climb.  His comment to me, "by the end of the summer I'm going to clean this climb".  That, is exactly why that climb shouldn't be routed around or made easier.  It's good progression.

I very much agree, the first time I rode that place it kicked my ass, Nick may remember that!  A summer of practice and I can ride it now.  I don't like the idea of making things easier, it should be the other way around.  As for the sandy bowl I really like that it is just a free for all area and would hate to see it be organized.  I think switchbacks up the ambulance is a great idea to make it more rideable.

Please don't get rid of the sandy climb.  I believe we had this same discussion a few years ago, and I don't believe the trail has eroded significantly since then (aside from the lower, pre-sandy part).  As I recall, someone suggested that if occasionally walking one's bike ruined one's whole ride, then perhaps one should stick to the pavement.  Upgrading the ambulance trail to something more interesting sounds like a great idea, but the sandy climb is, as many have said, a highlight of the trail.

This has been my point - and building off my premise that the climb really doesn't need to be maintained as much as has been said - that climb means a lot to a lot of riders.  It's a rite of passage for a lot of people - initially a hard goal and then a major accomplishment and source of pride.  Then it becomes a fun part of the ride, and it can stay challenging - take different lines, use smaller cogs, do more loops.

Honestly I think part of the problem (I could be wrong) but I think xc riders are under-represented in the contributions to the trail maintenance and work out there.  The downhill/FR guys show up and do a ton of work - Brendan and co do work on the main trail for everybody too but it's not their main type of riding.  (Although I note interestingly some DJ guys like Tim are even enjoying the challenge of the xc riding and climbing) Almost all the progressive work out there in the last couple of years has been on downhill work.  Yet as I said there is a very high population of xc riders out there.  Maybe if we are more visible by working together on trail work and maintenance and agree on a group of people to watch after that climb, we can agree to leave it for the majority of riders who want it there, and this discussion goes away.

I absolutely don't think it should become a downhill line though.