in CamRock (Moderator: TheMayor1)

Should Cam-Rock have a minimum tire size of 3.8" or larger on the groomed winter trails
at all times?

I think we should. Those that have ridden the trails with the frozen grooves know how
difficult and dangerous they are to ride.

Once they are frozen the groomer will have a difficult time removing them if at all.

That would be ideal but hard to enforce, and there are times when you don't need a purpose-built fat tire.

Having the same signs all over our sites that say you don't leave marks with tires or feet in any season seems best.

Discussing this topic with one of our land managers got comments on the difficulties to enforce, and how rule making can be a very slippery slope.  They gave me an example where they can only state people should wear helmets, not must, and it would be even harder to say what tires you can or can't have and when.

I think those ruts at Camrock may have been with fat tires when the trail was warm as well as closed. Hikers without snowshoes can do a lot of damage as well. Dogs are allowed there as well on a leash. I think when there is enough snow the gravel path is groomed for skiing.


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Accommodating all those user groups can be tricky.


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It is a really good question, and one that may not have any clear cut answer.

On one hand, most groomed areas I ride mark the trails for 3.8" or larger tires, tire pressures below 8psi, and no hikers. The clear reason they do that, is you have a known parameter, and can open/close the trails accordingly. If a 3.8" tire at 8psi is leaving a rut, close the trails.
Also if you have deep snow, it will rarely get packed to the point that a tire less than 3.8" will not be leaving a rut.

On the other hand, we don't often get deep snows like some areas. And I do like the educational opportunity to try and get all users to understand that if you are leaving a rut in the trail, skinny, fat, hikers, anyone, you should not be on the trail. And developing signage to that effect should help with the issue for all users. It reminds me of a conversation I had over Christmas with a person I know. They had been out hiking the muddy trails, and thought it was good that the trails were closed to biking....but they were hiking on a muddy trail :'( And they did not see that as a problem : Education is needed.

I think we need to be proactive on this if we are going to be grooming the trails.

Groomed snow trails are a completely different beast than dirt. Conditions change hourly
then add sun exposure on top of that. Tire size and pressure can make a huge difference..

My opinion is - 3.8" min tire size, easy to read signs with large icons, possibly simple gates like Kettles.

I strongly disagree with a tire size limit, why deter others from riding? I rode my Stache out there today with no issues at all. 3.8'' tires are not needed for groomed trails. If trail conditions permit I will be riding my 3'' tires.

The rut in the middle of the trail in Creekside was most likely made from the Rokon not riders

On another note the groomer being used is really only beneficial with fresh snow. Having a XC ski style groomer that breaks up the snow before compaction is what is needed to remove ruts.

Today is one of those days that a skinny tire will work, the trails currently are basically ice.

I also want as many people as possible riding the trails. Dave and I are the one's grooming
the trails currently, I can see the damage from the skinny tires as I groom.

The ruts are not from the Rokon. A couple of club members witnessed a few people riding
fat bikes when the trails were closed.

That machine looks great for a flat surface, I don't see it working on our tight trails. It also
looks like it needs to be pulled behind a snowmobile. I don't think the Rokon is capable of
pulling it. Chuck and Dave put a lot of research into finding the machine best for our trails.


 

Those with passion for this should register now:

http://www.northernfatbikesummit.com/

Unfortunately Jeff can't make it but Jeff and the "groominator" were invited with a nice offer to help him get it there. From that we learned there will be people looking at grooming and trail management in snow-challenged areas like ours and others. Small chapters and major chapters.

Some of us have been to a few IMBA events now. They're great on many levels. We've met great friends. We've learned a lot whether it's about riding, trails or managing an organization. For the Marquette summer summit and 1 - 10 scale, the only things not scoring 10-11 were a few moments of rain and what your body felt like after a few days of that much fun and effort.

On a more serious note, our ad hoc fat bike committee needs to organize and create an annual budget. Someone should also help the CORP effort at the next fat bike race. Both are really important for this topic.

Gates don't really work; they rely on someone opening and closing them, and the assumption is that if they are open, the trail is open.  Since, as has been stated, conditions change by the hour (in summer as well as winter), it is pretty much impossible to stay on top of them.

Hard and fast rules don't really work, either, because conditions are so variable.  Sometimes a 4" tire is will rut, sometimes a 1" tire is okay.

The only thing that will work is education and peer-pressure.  Whether that is from signs, fellow riders, an ad campaign, or some combination, "Don't ride if you are leaving a rut," needs to be spread far and wide.

I agree education is the ideal... I have called riders out when they shouldn't be riding. So far
not a single one was even aware that the trails were closed or that CORP existed.

My thought on gates are (at cam-rock) that a few locals are within walking distance, this
isn't ideal.


From them research I have done most of the places recommend 3.5" or greater on trails during the grooming season. I think we are making this more complicated than it needs to be.

I have been trying to ride my bike in the snow for 40 years. Fat bikes have become a game
changer for me in the snow. Do we all have fat bikes in this discussion?

I am in 100% agreement on the education ideal. I think as part of this discussion we have to admit that no matter what we do, it will not be 100% effective.
A perfect example are the big ruts on the first section of trail south of Cambridge, on the White River section. They were put in by riders on 5" tires. It was over 40 degrees out. There was a huge below zero cold front coming within hours. We had just groomed the trail. And the trails were closed. You would think not riding would be obvious. The only good thing to happen here was Derek saw them getting in their car, and called them out.
But we can do a much better job with education, as we need to try.

Here is my thought: Whatever policy we decide, I think we need big signs at all entrance points stating: "Remember the trails are closed to all users if a tire or foot traffic is leaving a rut". And then follow that something like "Make sure you check trail conditions before using trails." or "If you have not checked trail conditions, you should not be on the trails" And then list the QR Code and web page link.

Do we all have fat bikes in this discussion?

I do not own a fat bike and have no intention of buying one. That being said I have owned them in the past and ridden them countless times.

Here is my thought: Whatever policy we decide, I think we need big signs at all entrance points stating: "Remember the trails are closed to all users if a tire or foot traffic is leaving a rut". And then follow that something like "Make sure you check trail conditions before using trails." or "If you have not checked trail conditions, you should not be on the trails" And then list the QR Code and web page link.

I like this thinking. Posting a specific tire size is not the answer.

Here is my thought: Whatever policy we decide, I think we need big signs at all entrance points stating: "Remember the trails are closed to all users if a tire or foot traffic is leaving a rut". And then follow that something like "Make sure you check trail conditions before using trails." or "If you have not checked trail conditions, you should not be on the trails" And then list the QR Code and web page link.

I'm with RaleighX and against a specific tire/PSI limit. Some verbiage like TheMayor's above seems excellent to me as it works year-round. I get that it's a bummer when the hard work of grooming is ruined by somebody riding in less than ideal conditions, but as has been stated, there are MANY occasions where a 3.8" tire is unnecessary. It seems a bit snooty and exclusive to require people to have a fat bike to ride the trails to me, it may seem like it, but not everybody has one.

The concerns I have at Cam-Rock are that many people start at the Cambridge side. I think
the section leaving town and following the river will be in great shape most of the time. But
past that the conditions can change greatly.

My concern is people will judge trail conditions by the first section, ride further down the trail
and find conditions are poor and damage that part of the trail.